It‘s great to see an episode on sodium ion batteries. But it is a little odd to have an entire episode on the topic without any discussion on whether the numbers in CATL‘s recent press releases are real. Because if the CATL price and density numbers are close to real, it would fundamentally change the market. Peak is talking about having a higher materials cost but then making up the difference on lower operating expenses. CATL is talking about slashing the materials costs for sodium ion batteries to the point that they would be substantially cheaper than LFP. Then factor in the larger number of charge cycles ….
The silence is deafening on the CATL announcement. People don't even want to speculate. Supposedly they have the final product and just need to get through production efficiency issues to get to $10? That blows up a lot of businesses, and makes Non-Wire Alternatives a whole new ballgame. But maybe CATL is just sick of hearing bogus claims from certain "fundraisers" and figured they can afford to float their own BS too.
Other than Matt Ferrell‘s pieces, I haven’t seen many folks try to evaluate whether the CATL numbers are credible. But even if $10/kWh is overly optimistic, any numbers that are on par or lower than LFP would seem to be a game changer for utility storage and home backup.
Great show. A few thoughts. 1 is that CATL has published according to a few solar sites $10 kWh for cells on sodium. 2. It’s always tough to push on specifics. But he never said what the actual efficiency is. I get his point that really it’s the total including HVAC. but still he should say that. 3. Water pumps like in a container for cooling use almost no energy. As it’s just pushing the fluid around in a circle. The main energy use is the cooling.
They are buying their cells probably from CATL. I just don’t see any US companies/investors investing enough money to be a major player given batteries are low profit, and require a lot of continued engineering development that it seems US companies.
Great job, David. Great questions. I heard him on another podcast, and the interviewer went off on tangents unrelated to the actual ESS storage container product.
And he had great answers. Reminded me of the chap from Fervo. Doing the work and showing the cards. There seem to be quite a few players in both the battery and geo-generation world have science projects, not real products. And are a bit evasive as a result. My preference of course is batteries, as they are universally applicable, instead of location-limited.
Electricity storage at reasonable cost is a total game changer. You may not appreciate how many climate-progressive-enviro activists have been owned by lithium loathing. So this helps. A lot. Interesting how it is just an evolution on the whole Li battery form, manufacturing and materials. I buy it.
EOS Energy non-flammable aqueous zinc BESS containers do not require mechanical pumps, cooling, or special fire supression systems. Instead of active HVAC systems needed by many lithium-ion battery containers, EOS Znyth® aqueous zinc batteries use simple passive venting to dissipate waste heat. They're not flow batteries. Kaiser Healthcare is already installing EOS BESS, along with massive solar parking lot canopies & EV chargers at some of their hospitals. EOS just hired a guy who's been running major industrial production expansion projects for 30 years for Jabil. So they're probably planning to expand rapidly in the US & Europe. Zinc is probably more expensive than sodium, but it's readily available & recyclable and the battery fabrication is less complex than typical lithium & sodium battery designs. EOS BESS are US sourced & manufactured in Pittsburg PA. Minimal tariff issues
"How much faster can a burrito get to you?"
Definitely my quote of the day.
Thanks for an excellent episode.
It‘s great to see an episode on sodium ion batteries. But it is a little odd to have an entire episode on the topic without any discussion on whether the numbers in CATL‘s recent press releases are real. Because if the CATL price and density numbers are close to real, it would fundamentally change the market. Peak is talking about having a higher materials cost but then making up the difference on lower operating expenses. CATL is talking about slashing the materials costs for sodium ion batteries to the point that they would be substantially cheaper than LFP. Then factor in the larger number of charge cycles ….
The silence is deafening on the CATL announcement. People don't even want to speculate. Supposedly they have the final product and just need to get through production efficiency issues to get to $10? That blows up a lot of businesses, and makes Non-Wire Alternatives a whole new ballgame. But maybe CATL is just sick of hearing bogus claims from certain "fundraisers" and figured they can afford to float their own BS too.
Other than Matt Ferrell‘s pieces, I haven’t seen many folks try to evaluate whether the CATL numbers are credible. But even if $10/kWh is overly optimistic, any numbers that are on par or lower than LFP would seem to be a game changer for utility storage and home backup.
What an inspirational discussion, thank you! Especially coming on the daily diet of political insanity, this gives me hope for our future.
👌👌🫶
Great show. A few thoughts. 1 is that CATL has published according to a few solar sites $10 kWh for cells on sodium. 2. It’s always tough to push on specifics. But he never said what the actual efficiency is. I get his point that really it’s the total including HVAC. but still he should say that. 3. Water pumps like in a container for cooling use almost no energy. As it’s just pushing the fluid around in a circle. The main energy use is the cooling.
They are buying their cells probably from CATL. I just don’t see any US companies/investors investing enough money to be a major player given batteries are low profit, and require a lot of continued engineering development that it seems US companies.
Great job, David. Great questions. I heard him on another podcast, and the interviewer went off on tangents unrelated to the actual ESS storage container product.
And he had great answers. Reminded me of the chap from Fervo. Doing the work and showing the cards. There seem to be quite a few players in both the battery and geo-generation world have science projects, not real products. And are a bit evasive as a result. My preference of course is batteries, as they are universally applicable, instead of location-limited.
Electricity storage at reasonable cost is a total game changer. You may not appreciate how many climate-progressive-enviro activists have been owned by lithium loathing. So this helps. A lot. Interesting how it is just an evolution on the whole Li battery form, manufacturing and materials. I buy it.
EOS Energy non-flammable aqueous zinc BESS containers do not require mechanical pumps, cooling, or special fire supression systems. Instead of active HVAC systems needed by many lithium-ion battery containers, EOS Znyth® aqueous zinc batteries use simple passive venting to dissipate waste heat. They're not flow batteries. Kaiser Healthcare is already installing EOS BESS, along with massive solar parking lot canopies & EV chargers at some of their hospitals. EOS just hired a guy who's been running major industrial production expansion projects for 30 years for Jabil. So they're probably planning to expand rapidly in the US & Europe. Zinc is probably more expensive than sodium, but it's readily available & recyclable and the battery fabrication is less complex than typical lithium & sodium battery designs. EOS BESS are US sourced & manufactured in Pittsburg PA. Minimal tariff issues