Frank Rambo joins me to discuss the multi-billion-dollar utility practice of running expensive coal plants and the Trump administration's efforts to prop them up.
My understanding is that it takes a whole 48 hours to bring up a coal boiler and turbine from a cold start. I don't know how that's considered in these various models.
Gas units of all types and sizes are faster, some almost instant. Until we have 10 day batteries we need them but they should run at only 10% capacity factor in a very high renewables grid. But the "No New Fossil Infrastructure" and "Want 100% Clean" folks have actually impeded the change from coal to these gas units in places. They don't understand how they are an enabling tech, and that there is no workable long duration battery for the Dunkleflaute. But going from 30% clean to 85% clean, and at reasonable colst is a big victory.
Great discussion and I'm learning a lot from your podcast! I had one thing I'm confused on -- In the discussion a few weeks ago (solar+storage) you said that solar is now cheaper than *new* coal by the MWh - but in this episode you keep referring to coal as "the most expensive" for existing infrastructure. Can someone elaborate a bit?
The pass-through pricing explanation related to coal was really eye-opening. One of those things that makes sense but needs to be explained to hit you over the head (figuratively.)
I’m in the 10%-40% that knows coal is damn expensive but foolish me, I legitimately thought coal had declined to only true peaking. Feeling especially naïve’ right now.
This is such a great piece! Obviously, as stated in the beginning, we need to talk about coal more and not assume it's a fait accompli. But more than that, I feel like I finally have an economic understanding of the capex side of the equation that is incentivizing this behavior. Incredibly useful!
Another great episode. I couldn’t help but think about how the Corporation Commission here in AZ is moving to repeal our state Renewable Energy Standard and allow coal plants to continue operating longer than planned, and they’re justifying it by saying coal is cheaper. We really need a way to get the word out on these things.
Updating nuclear power to be hot output, dry fueled, and manufactured will make it at least 10 times cheaper than today's coal energy. Utilities don't want to hear that because they don't want to write off their stranded assets. And they're worried that the revenue might be 10 times less. Economics teaches us when a useful product becomes cheaper, you sell more. I'm pretty sure that people would buy 20 times as much electricity if the price were 1/10. We would start purifying our air and water and waste streams and we would make the circular economy happen. We would grow a lot more food indoors and stop using pesticides. We would provide all the fresh water anybody wants with dieselization. It would be a better world. All the the sticky and tractable problems turn out to be bonehead simple if energy is 10x less expensive.
Terrapraxis has the right answer. Convert coal plants to run on uranium. We just need to upgrade to president JFK's Apollo era technology. The molten salt reactor is one of many designs that can safely upgrade these power plants.
We should convert all 200 of our coal plants to run on uranium and keep them in business for the next 100 years. China has already started on one coal plant conversion. If they like the taste of that they will decarbonize 1152 more coal plants after that. China will dominate industry by having the cheapest and cleanest energy for industrial production in the world.
And they have thanked oak ridge for their tremendous help making the sort of reactor that works inside coal plants or on small warships. I think America should be using this technology too!
I'm tired of people saying that Americans aren't capable of building nuclear the way they build it in South Korea or China. Yes we can!
We have had corruption issues that's caused a number of our projects to become boondoggles. But you do not solve corruption by turning away from a technology.
My understanding is that it takes a whole 48 hours to bring up a coal boiler and turbine from a cold start. I don't know how that's considered in these various models.
Gas units of all types and sizes are faster, some almost instant. Until we have 10 day batteries we need them but they should run at only 10% capacity factor in a very high renewables grid. But the "No New Fossil Infrastructure" and "Want 100% Clean" folks have actually impeded the change from coal to these gas units in places. They don't understand how they are an enabling tech, and that there is no workable long duration battery for the Dunkleflaute. But going from 30% clean to 85% clean, and at reasonable colst is a big victory.
Great discussion and I'm learning a lot from your podcast! I had one thing I'm confused on -- In the discussion a few weeks ago (solar+storage) you said that solar is now cheaper than *new* coal by the MWh - but in this episode you keep referring to coal as "the most expensive" for existing infrastructure. Can someone elaborate a bit?
The pass-through pricing explanation related to coal was really eye-opening. One of those things that makes sense but needs to be explained to hit you over the head (figuratively.)
I’m in the 10%-40% that knows coal is damn expensive but foolish me, I legitimately thought coal had declined to only true peaking. Feeling especially naïve’ right now.
This is such a great piece! Obviously, as stated in the beginning, we need to talk about coal more and not assume it's a fait accompli. But more than that, I feel like I finally have an economic understanding of the capex side of the equation that is incentivizing this behavior. Incredibly useful!
Grumpy: let's build that nuke plant in your community. You cool with that dear comrade
Another great episode. I couldn’t help but think about how the Corporation Commission here in AZ is moving to repeal our state Renewable Energy Standard and allow coal plants to continue operating longer than planned, and they’re justifying it by saying coal is cheaper. We really need a way to get the word out on these things.
Great episode.... However...
Yet another story about coal which excludes Santa Claus? Surely his demand for coal will be off the charts later this year, right? (ijs)
👍
Updating nuclear power to be hot output, dry fueled, and manufactured will make it at least 10 times cheaper than today's coal energy. Utilities don't want to hear that because they don't want to write off their stranded assets. And they're worried that the revenue might be 10 times less. Economics teaches us when a useful product becomes cheaper, you sell more. I'm pretty sure that people would buy 20 times as much electricity if the price were 1/10. We would start purifying our air and water and waste streams and we would make the circular economy happen. We would grow a lot more food indoors and stop using pesticides. We would provide all the fresh water anybody wants with dieselization. It would be a better world. All the the sticky and tractable problems turn out to be bonehead simple if energy is 10x less expensive.
Terrapraxis has the right answer. Convert coal plants to run on uranium. We just need to upgrade to president JFK's Apollo era technology. The molten salt reactor is one of many designs that can safely upgrade these power plants.
We should convert all 200 of our coal plants to run on uranium and keep them in business for the next 100 years. China has already started on one coal plant conversion. If they like the taste of that they will decarbonize 1152 more coal plants after that. China will dominate industry by having the cheapest and cleanest energy for industrial production in the world.
And they have thanked oak ridge for their tremendous help making the sort of reactor that works inside coal plants or on small warships. I think America should be using this technology too!
I'm tired of people saying that Americans aren't capable of building nuclear the way they build it in South Korea or China. Yes we can!
We have had corruption issues that's caused a number of our projects to become boondoggles. But you do not solve corruption by turning away from a technology.
You're nuts.
You can't convert a coal plant to a nuclear plant.
What gummies are you chewing on.