Geothermal power has conventionally been viewed as a baseload, always-on resource, like nuclear. But new research suggests it could play a much more dynamic & valuable role on the grid than that -- and expand much faster & farther than previously estimated. I chat with one the co-authors.
While Wilson Ricks' focus is on using EGS for electricity generation, it is important to understand that in areas where very hot rocks are not easily accessible, EGS may still be a good provider of lower temperature steam and water for use in heating buildings' space and water. There may be an interesting opportunity to combine "Deep Geothermal" or EGS with The combination of "Deep Geothermal" with the Utility Thermal Energy Networks recently encouraged by New York State law.
Here's an old (2017) report on the potential for EGS as a thermal energy resource in Tompkins County, New York.
Fabulous podcast. I look forward to hearing more from a Dr. Wilson Ricks. He has the teacher talent and has found a great wave to stand up on. Note: I did hear him touch on potential for seismicity in passing.
Exciting concept—let's hope it works when they actually try to build it.
I do wish Ricks had at least touched on the topic of induced seismic activity. As far as I know, any earthquakes attributed to oil and gas fracking have been too small to cause significant damage, and there's probably no reason to think this would be any different. Something to be aware of, though.
I had 2 questions that should be of general interest . 1) Can old nat gas fracked areas be used for this or are they not deep enough? 2) what is the depth of a EGS well , and this would vary by location and what is the depth of a nat gas "well" which probably also varies by location
Most nat gas wells, with some exceptions, are not deep enough and are in low geothermal gradient areas. An 'average' gradient is 30 deg C/km of depth. The depth of an EGS well will depend on the geothermal gradient. The FORGE site in Utah has a gradient in the order of 100 deg C/km. and the two experimental wells are some 2 km deep.
I should qualify what I wrote above. There are millions of oil and gas wells around the world. A very small percentage are in areas with high geothermal gradient and/or deep enough to be in moderately high heat zones. But a small percentage is still a potentially significant heat source, though not a game changer like deep geothermal has the potential to be. CaraPhi Energy in the UK, Transitional Energy and Blade Energy in the US are companies trying to repurpose O&G wells as heat sources.
The above ground part of this wasn’t the focus of this discussion, but it’s worth noting, that part is already fully developed existing technology. Ormat Technology has a substantial global portfolio of small footprint geothermal plants they’ve developed in the past 20 years. California Community Aggregators already have contracts with Ormat for base load power from plants located in NV & near Mammoth Mt. CA. And they’re looking at developing additional strategically distributed plants in Lake, Sonoma & Mendocino Counties. Widely distributed solar & planned off-shore wind farms are going to supply most of the required renewable energy in northern CA, but the gas peaker & aging nuclear base load plants are probably going to be largely replaced with these Enhanced or Advanced Geothermal plants in the next decade. There’s going to be a lot of new investment in this.
I subscribed to your substack early on and followed you on Twitter but when I asked you about comment you made, you immediately blocked me. I did nothing wrong except repeat your own words and ask about it and you blocked me. Great way to treat a subscriber, is it women you just have a problem with being decent to? Hope you can do better than this going forward.
A little reminder here that Trump illegally withheld $91m in funding from ARPA-e in 2017 requiring Congress to act. What if the US allocated more money for pilot projects - what if?!
Yep. Fracking has definitely developed a negative reputation, but that's mostly due to disposing of the nasty chemicals used for oil and gas fracking. EGS uses water so that's not an issue, although induced seismicity is still a risk. But is that too nuanced for the average person?
I'm an economist, so I'm trained to think in terms of tradeoffs. Even if unpleasant chemicals had to be used, carbon free baseload power would be a plus. But for too many in the environmentalist community, fracking for geothermal will not be distinguished from hydrocarbon extraction.
Indeed. It's like when you say "permitting reform" and certain enviros go ballistic because they equate it with fossil fuel projects.
We need to dramatically upgrade the power grid—quickly—to handle all the clean energy that's coming online. Our current permitting "system", with its preponderance of veto points and interminable process, isn't up to the task.
While Wilson Ricks' focus is on using EGS for electricity generation, it is important to understand that in areas where very hot rocks are not easily accessible, EGS may still be a good provider of lower temperature steam and water for use in heating buildings' space and water. There may be an interesting opportunity to combine "Deep Geothermal" or EGS with The combination of "Deep Geothermal" with the Utility Thermal Energy Networks recently encouraged by New York State law.
Here's an old (2017) report on the potential for EGS as a thermal energy resource in Tompkins County, New York.
https://tompkinscountyny.gov/files2/planning/energyclimate/documents/Geothermal2%2010-15-15.pdf
Thanks for sharing this. Here's a recent update on the Cornell/Tomkins project for anyone who's interested: https://news.cornell.edu/stories/2022/06/2-mile-borehole-reveal-viability-campuss-geothermal-future
Fabulous podcast. I look forward to hearing more from a Dr. Wilson Ricks. He has the teacher talent and has found a great wave to stand up on. Note: I did hear him touch on potential for seismicity in passing.
Exciting concept—let's hope it works when they actually try to build it.
I do wish Ricks had at least touched on the topic of induced seismic activity. As far as I know, any earthquakes attributed to oil and gas fracking have been too small to cause significant damage, and there's probably no reason to think this would be any different. Something to be aware of, though.
Another great get, David.
It sounded like the systems were largely closed loop, but are there implications for water consumption?
I had 2 questions that should be of general interest . 1) Can old nat gas fracked areas be used for this or are they not deep enough? 2) what is the depth of a EGS well , and this would vary by location and what is the depth of a nat gas "well" which probably also varies by location
Most nat gas wells, with some exceptions, are not deep enough and are in low geothermal gradient areas. An 'average' gradient is 30 deg C/km of depth. The depth of an EGS well will depend on the geothermal gradient. The FORGE site in Utah has a gradient in the order of 100 deg C/km. and the two experimental wells are some 2 km deep.
I should qualify what I wrote above. There are millions of oil and gas wells around the world. A very small percentage are in areas with high geothermal gradient and/or deep enough to be in moderately high heat zones. But a small percentage is still a potentially significant heat source, though not a game changer like deep geothermal has the potential to be. CaraPhi Energy in the UK, Transitional Energy and Blade Energy in the US are companies trying to repurpose O&G wells as heat sources.
The above ground part of this wasn’t the focus of this discussion, but it’s worth noting, that part is already fully developed existing technology. Ormat Technology has a substantial global portfolio of small footprint geothermal plants they’ve developed in the past 20 years. California Community Aggregators already have contracts with Ormat for base load power from plants located in NV & near Mammoth Mt. CA. And they’re looking at developing additional strategically distributed plants in Lake, Sonoma & Mendocino Counties. Widely distributed solar & planned off-shore wind farms are going to supply most of the required renewable energy in northern CA, but the gas peaker & aging nuclear base load plants are probably going to be largely replaced with these Enhanced or Advanced Geothermal plants in the next decade. There’s going to be a lot of new investment in this.
I subscribed to your substack early on and followed you on Twitter but when I asked you about comment you made, you immediately blocked me. I did nothing wrong except repeat your own words and ask about it and you blocked me. Great way to treat a subscriber, is it women you just have a problem with being decent to? Hope you can do better than this going forward.
A little reminder here that Trump illegally withheld $91m in funding from ARPA-e in 2017 requiring Congress to act. What if the US allocated more money for pilot projects - what if?!
https://www.nrdc.org/experts/elizabeth-noll/congress-rejects-trumps-dismantling-clean-energy-funding
Both article links appear to point to the same article. Am I missing something?
Oops -- fixed!
Of course some people will mindlessly say but this is fracking.😟
Yep. Fracking has definitely developed a negative reputation, but that's mostly due to disposing of the nasty chemicals used for oil and gas fracking. EGS uses water so that's not an issue, although induced seismicity is still a risk. But is that too nuanced for the average person?
I'm an economist, so I'm trained to think in terms of tradeoffs. Even if unpleasant chemicals had to be used, carbon free baseload power would be a plus. But for too many in the environmentalist community, fracking for geothermal will not be distinguished from hydrocarbon extraction.
Indeed. It's like when you say "permitting reform" and certain enviros go ballistic because they equate it with fossil fuel projects.
We need to dramatically upgrade the power grid—quickly—to handle all the clean energy that's coming online. Our current permitting "system", with its preponderance of veto points and interminable process, isn't up to the task.