Very well done episode for a highly technical subject. Kudos to all for explaining grid inverters and their importance to the RE transition in a way that a non-scientist can understand.
My question is how is China handling the management of grid-forming inverters and what can we learn from them, given that they reportedly are deploying orders of magnitude more solar and wind than in the west. They must be getting pretty good at managing energy flows of hundreds of GW of wind and solar, in combination with batteries, something we seem to only be making plans for.
Two great pods in a row, cheap batteries, then grid-forming inverters.
I think I installed a "grid-forming inverter" from SMA in 1993 or so. "Sunny Boy."
Back when most PV was "off-grid" and most of those folks either didn't have a backup generator or kept it off most of the time. With a bunch of lead acid batteries in a shed or crawlspace. Before that, off-grid solar/battery systems were 24 or 48V DC.
Anyway, clearly more complex to do this on "The Grid," in combination with hundreds of other generators, but it's clearly happening and another reason to "never mind the brakes," on the wind/solar/storage/electrification transition.
Just a few random links to where it's happening now:
The last one, in TX, made me wonder about your question about "how will/are the electricity markets or operators compensating for this additional service?"
The other great and grand thing about grid-forming inverters on big batteries is that they can have "black start" capabilities, unlike most nuclear and coal "wonderful baseload" generators. And even more quickly than gas turbines.
No wonder the FF biz is using general reactionaries are putting up roadblocks to wind and solar and storage. I fear they are winning in most places. I'm a "glass is half full, of poison," kinda guy.
Thanks for this - and the other interviews; in a media landscape where most reporting rarely gets deeper than a press release and uninformed journalistic commentary on it asking the important questions of people in the loop is refreshing as well as informative.
As an Australian (who is interested) I am aware of the growing use of synthetic inertia/grid forming inverters without necessarily being on top of what that means. It does seem like system operators here are not yet willing to commit to full reliance on such solutions at large scale and are requiring synchronous condensers to be sure, but I do expect that over time, with more experience - and continuing innovation and improvement - that the spinning machines will get phased out. Seems like the syncons have significant up front costs but much narrower utility and opportunity for revenues than a battery farm with updated inverter/software.
I had thought wind/solar generators could do more than curtail output on command - that at the cost of operating at less than full capacity, ie retaining a bit of headroom, should allow RE generators without the batteries to increase output as well as curtail it.
Another thought was the role of data networking that gives a central operator (or software algorithm) an accurate assessment of how the disparate elements are functioning in (close to) real time and respond rapidly in a coordinated manner to changes; seems to me a low latency data network, perhaps bespoke for purpose, would be a valuable tool.
I've been dispatched off the spinning reserve stack!
Doesn't mean I don't keep delivering MVARs of reactive power.
Those spinning turbines will always be part of the grid, even in a built-out carbon-efficient economy. Even without hydro...
We will continue to have waste management requirements. We have them right now in our work to keep our great carbon banks, the Forests, from calamitous oxidation. Maybe those base disposal requirements (urban garbage, rural biowaste) support (through the miracles of scale) fossil-substituting biofuel agriculture.
Carbon-efficient generation often involves cogeneration, often involving district heating (and even cooling, see the UC Davis tri-gen, which delivers heating and cooling to the campus as well as good old-fashioned QF-priced energy.
This basic configuration...presumably burning biomass instead of NG in the carbon economy...is a plausible element of the future.
Dispersed CHP delivers, in addition to thermal services and heat, dispersed reactive power. The turbines are much smaller than the old steam-turbine dinosaurs, so not as good at reactive power, but being scattered across the grid they meet the localized nature of the stability requirements (nobody wants to hear an economist explain the capacitance of the AC grid).
Nothing against the solid-state inverters delivering microVARS, especially when they are located near the noisy loads.
But the spinners will still be there.
We will survive!
Economist on spinning reserve, welcomes dispatch. Thanks for the prompt!
Very well done episode for a highly technical subject. Kudos to all for explaining grid inverters and their importance to the RE transition in a way that a non-scientist can understand.
My question is how is China handling the management of grid-forming inverters and what can we learn from them, given that they reportedly are deploying orders of magnitude more solar and wind than in the west. They must be getting pretty good at managing energy flows of hundreds of GW of wind and solar, in combination with batteries, something we seem to only be making plans for.
Two great pods in a row, cheap batteries, then grid-forming inverters.
I think I installed a "grid-forming inverter" from SMA in 1993 or so. "Sunny Boy."
Back when most PV was "off-grid" and most of those folks either didn't have a backup generator or kept it off most of the time. With a bunch of lead acid batteries in a shed or crawlspace. Before that, off-grid solar/battery systems were 24 or 48V DC.
Anyway, clearly more complex to do this on "The Grid," in combination with hundreds of other generators, but it's clearly happening and another reason to "never mind the brakes," on the wind/solar/storage/electrification transition.
Just a few random links to where it's happening now:
https://reneweconomy.com.au/second-stage-of-sunshine-states-biggest-battery-completed-ahead-of-schedule/
https://reneweconomy.com.au/tesla-says-battery-inverters-can-do-the-job-of-spinning-machines-at-a-fraction-of-the-cost/
https://www.ingeteam.com/Pressroom/Corporate/tabid/1574/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/3751/Ingeteam-commissions-its-largest-photovoltaic-project-in-the-US.aspx
The last one, in TX, made me wonder about your question about "how will/are the electricity markets or operators compensating for this additional service?"
The other great and grand thing about grid-forming inverters on big batteries is that they can have "black start" capabilities, unlike most nuclear and coal "wonderful baseload" generators. And even more quickly than gas turbines.
No wonder the FF biz is using general reactionaries are putting up roadblocks to wind and solar and storage. I fear they are winning in most places. I'm a "glass is half full, of poison," kinda guy.
Super useful explanation of grid forming options with inverters thanks !
Thanks for this - and the other interviews; in a media landscape where most reporting rarely gets deeper than a press release and uninformed journalistic commentary on it asking the important questions of people in the loop is refreshing as well as informative.
As an Australian (who is interested) I am aware of the growing use of synthetic inertia/grid forming inverters without necessarily being on top of what that means. It does seem like system operators here are not yet willing to commit to full reliance on such solutions at large scale and are requiring synchronous condensers to be sure, but I do expect that over time, with more experience - and continuing innovation and improvement - that the spinning machines will get phased out. Seems like the syncons have significant up front costs but much narrower utility and opportunity for revenues than a battery farm with updated inverter/software.
I had thought wind/solar generators could do more than curtail output on command - that at the cost of operating at less than full capacity, ie retaining a bit of headroom, should allow RE generators without the batteries to increase output as well as curtail it.
Another thought was the role of data networking that gives a central operator (or software algorithm) an accurate assessment of how the disparate elements are functioning in (close to) real time and respond rapidly in a coordinated manner to changes; seems to me a low latency data network, perhaps bespoke for purpose, would be a valuable tool.
I've been dispatched off the spinning reserve stack!
Doesn't mean I don't keep delivering MVARs of reactive power.
Those spinning turbines will always be part of the grid, even in a built-out carbon-efficient economy. Even without hydro...
We will continue to have waste management requirements. We have them right now in our work to keep our great carbon banks, the Forests, from calamitous oxidation. Maybe those base disposal requirements (urban garbage, rural biowaste) support (through the miracles of scale) fossil-substituting biofuel agriculture.
Carbon-efficient generation often involves cogeneration, often involving district heating (and even cooling, see the UC Davis tri-gen, which delivers heating and cooling to the campus as well as good old-fashioned QF-priced energy.
This basic configuration...presumably burning biomass instead of NG in the carbon economy...is a plausible element of the future.
Dispersed CHP delivers, in addition to thermal services and heat, dispersed reactive power. The turbines are much smaller than the old steam-turbine dinosaurs, so not as good at reactive power, but being scattered across the grid they meet the localized nature of the stability requirements (nobody wants to hear an economist explain the capacitance of the AC grid).
Nothing against the solid-state inverters delivering microVARS, especially when they are located near the noisy loads.
But the spinners will still be there.
We will survive!
Economist on spinning reserve, welcomes dispatch. Thanks for the prompt!